tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post1193830678653557612..comments2023-10-12T11:37:47.156-04:00Comments on ABSURDIST PARADISE: More on Grad SchoolEarnest Englishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01947000435270263070noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-25579710176713383462007-06-04T13:59:00.000-04:002007-06-04T13:59:00.000-04:00What I found odd was that, after having been enour...What I found odd was that, after having been enouraged to be an intellectual subject and all from freshman year on, at dissertation time what seemed to be expected, all of a sudden, was something a lot more like a high school "research paper." It was weird. <BR/><BR/>In general, what I found was that after years of intellectual maturity in college and through the Ph.D. exam, at dissertation time and in assistant professordom they wanted to infantilize and limit ...<BR/>I am still furious about it as you can tell and I r.e.f.u.s.e. to do it to any of *my* students.<BR/><BR/>You have to be doubly mature to keep up the kind of self regard you need to produce when the institution seems to want both originality and independence and also infantilism and conformity <BR/> - simultaneously, I have never understood it at all.Professor Zerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04909063513731044826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-77839200740746314802007-06-03T20:42:00.000-04:002007-06-03T20:42:00.000-04:00EE, your being the squeaky wheel (and a lot of the...EE, your being the squeaky wheel (and a lot of the things you've blogged about, in general) have made me feel better about myself. (I am working on a post about my insecurities, oh joy).<BR/><BR/>But I have a whole post up right now about the value of taking a break and working in business before going to graduate school, because I think it can make a huge difference -- and though I know people who are successfully going straight through, I think that doing so can be a source of major hardship.Jane Darkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11226543756994730250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-179371949566765722007-06-03T20:30:00.000-04:002007-06-03T20:30:00.000-04:00JD, I wonder if it is that issue of having had ano...JD, I wonder if it is that issue of having had another work life that makes it seem so obvious that things should be said. Of course I was the squeaky wheel at the various businesses where I worked too. I guess it's in my character. But I'm going to think more about those who go straight through and who really don't know their worth outside of the academy. I didn't work in a corporate environment though; maybe I'd be more politic if I had. Maude Lebowski over at vaginaphilosophy recently said that she felt that the academy was pretty corporate as well. Hmmm. Very interesting. <BR/><BR/>I don't know what to say about being a faculty person on the other side watching the grad students. Makes me sad all around somehow. I'll think more. Glad to have you here!Earnest Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01947000435270263070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-82540273719019512992007-06-03T20:03:00.000-04:002007-06-03T20:03:00.000-04:00EE, oh, yes, this makes so much sense. My uni wen...EE, oh, yes, this makes so much sense. My uni went through a massive shake-up years ago when all TAs unionized, and our department was particularly effective -- so they've changed a lot of their processes to deal with these issues, and there are grad student liaisons and committee members all over the place, who actually *do* have voices and communicate with other students about what's going on.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how common that is at other schools; perhaps I have imagined that it is when in fact it isn't common at all.<BR/><BR/>In some ways, my grad school career has felt really strange because working in a corporate culture for four years prepared me so well -- and so a lot of classmates have had to negotiate pitfalls that I was able to avoid. What you say about faculty members being willing to listen if only graduate students will give their opinions -- well, I see it happening here, too -- faculty aren't quite sure how to start the conversations, and/or grad students are too nervous to start it. (And with good reason, of course, since as you say you can't count on all faculty members). I start things, because my job-training taught me to, and faculty ask sometimes why other students aren't as forward. When they do, I explain my background, because the last thing I want to do is make other people look like inefficient communicators.<BR/><BR/>But I still feel weird and guilty about it. I haven't figured out yet how to improve the situation.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, thank you for this post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-81359478538898532932007-06-03T13:29:00.000-04:002007-06-03T13:29:00.000-04:00AW: First off, YAY to wine blogging! Obviously...AW: First off, YAY to wine blogging! Obviously, I think institutional change is very very important. If nothing else, grad students have a different vantage point on the department -- one that faculty members don't usually see. My department has been pretty supportive of me. But without a lot of grad student speaking up, it's hard to get lasting institutional change. <BR/><BR/>Sis: I too have been in and out of the shitter in my department. I think you and I feel the same -- part of why I'm in the academy is because of social justice issues.<BR/><BR/>T: I'm so relieved. If you can see the difference between grad student complaining and grad students who are voicing real concerns, then surely others see that too! YAY! So glad to have you weigh in here.<BR/><BR/>SB: Welcome to Absurdist Paradise! Yes, knowing how and when to voice concerns has been a huge education for me in grad school. For me -- more prone to saying things in blunt and terrible ways rather than being silent -- it's pretty much been trial by fire. At my most desperate moments, I've pissed people off! Though I'd rather do that than be quiet. <BR/><BR/>I guess it's that being a "good student" thing that keeps other people quiet. But I was never that good of a "good student." For me, being good is being true to myself. Which also, sadly for me and my professionalism and if I don't watch it my career, means saying what I think. I'm trying hard to become more politic without sacrificing who I am.<BR/><BR/>Thanks all for your comments! Sometimes when I mount my soapbox, no one responds and I feel all alone!Earnest Englishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01947000435270263070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-63917766784505501402007-06-03T08:45:00.000-04:002007-06-03T08:45:00.000-04:00Well said! (And, um, hi, since I don't think I've ...Well said! (And, um, hi, since I don't think I've met you before, either.) I'm also lucky to have a very supportive department that does genuinely want to hear about our concerns, but learning when and how to complain is still a really difficult (although, I think, valuable) thing to do. <BR/><BR/>It's easy to see department politics as this huge, complex, intimidating spider-web that we can't escape from and can't understand, and conclude from that that we shouldn't ever make any movements in case the spiders start heading our way, but that hasn't been the case in my experience. We seem to be worried that the department can't tell the difference between whining and legitimate complaints, but we need to acknowledge that difference ourselves, at the very least. And I think I'm a happier and more professional academic-in-training for feeling confident enough to do that, these days.September Bluehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04860285669050838061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-38784077043039268692007-06-03T08:07:00.000-04:002007-06-03T08:07:00.000-04:00Hear hear, adjunct whore!As someone who has very l...Hear hear, adjunct whore!<BR/><BR/>As someone who has very little patience for the maintenance of institutional structures for their own sakes, I'd advocate a don't-take-any-shit/call-it-like-you-see-it attitude not only as a necessary and responsible form of witness, but for the preservation of sanity. You need to work hard to maintain perspective when you're deep inside the graduate school experience. Now that I teach grad students, though, I can see clearly the difference between the students who have enough self regard to call bullshit when necessary - who are invariably those who most have their shit together because they are aware of what they need to be doing for themselves professionally and personally - and those who whine and complain as a <I>substitute</I> for doing the work they need to do in their own lives.Tirunculahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788199657297216288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-54945500985916095102007-06-03T08:02:00.000-04:002007-06-03T08:02:00.000-04:00i'm not at all suggesting that we should ever stop...i'm not at all suggesting that we should ever stop dissenting or that accepting exploitation is a reasonable position. i would also never accept being intimidated into submission. expressing personal distaste for something in your department or faculty is one thing(perceived as the cliche i refer to, unfairly), and institutional change is quite another.<BR/><BR/>i only meant to suggest that graduate students are at the bottom of the food chain and remain so until the do their work and cycle out into a slightly less exploited position. we all struggle against this in our own ways and the struggle is where it is at. i don't ever for any reason think you or anyone should do something that feels like an unaccpetable compromise for a job, ever, for anything! so sorry if my previous comment came off this way at all....a little wine blogging can sometimes create havoc:)gwoertendykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00542058287462910446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-57371383293559091282007-06-02T23:35:00.000-04:002007-06-02T23:35:00.000-04:00Demystification! Yes. Ah, well, there's complaints...Demystification! Yes. <BR/><BR/>Ah, well, there's complaints, and then there's refusing to be pushed around. I have been in and out of the shitter at my dept. for loudly protesting "that's fucked up" when that was so, or for calling attention to unfairness in the department. (I should note that I started this long before I figured out that it could be detrimental to my status or that it was not done in grad school.) I would say that this is part of not being the "good student" and becoming an adult, and I would also say that intimidation is an effective technique for maintaining the status quo. And I don't want to be part of a department or a profession that ruthlessly squashes justified dissent. So I'm willing to push against the boundaries of the profession, and if they kick me out for telling some hard truths, like the exploitation of most teachers, as adjuncts, then I'm willing to go. I'm not willing to do "whatever it takes" to get the promised (possibly mythic) tenure track job.Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8399701802496487396.post-18436641751034776302007-06-02T20:06:00.000-04:002007-06-02T20:06:00.000-04:00ee--i think what you are saying is part of being a...ee--i think what you are saying is part of being a graduate student, one shared by most programs. the whiny negative grad student is a long-known cliche and as soon as you step away it becomes easy to see. because i took so long to finish i saw as soon as i wasn't on campus. but i also protested the first year, wrote scathing letters of dissent to particularly entrenched (and on the wrong side, i thought) faculty members, in short, i was a very politically active grad student. but after lamenting how little change could be made at the institutional level by grad students, i settled into my work and my eyes opened. i think what Clara commented on dr. crazy's recent post is astute--<BR/><BR/>this is not at all meant as critique but as my observations from my own dept, myself, and my good friends in grad school, all of us went through this process.gwoertendykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00542058287462910446noreply@blogger.com